First Sin Sot Then Comes Gnern Yaah

The Thai female is a delightful creature.  They make it their business to present you with the ideal female.  They go through training to acquire that skill.  They are taught to Wai, and speak quietly, and show a great deal of respect for others (at least on the surface).   They may even take lessons in traditional Thai dancing.  It's a great domestic package.  They may not have the Kama Sutra figured out exactly, but hey, everyone needs some room for improvement.

So, in a number of ways, the Thai female may get her start as a commodity.  If she is very beautiful, if she has education, if she has a career, if she has chaste purity (oh damn, there is that "V" word again), and if she comes from a hi-end well-to-do family, she may be paired up to a suitor who will certainly pay handsomely for a new wife to join him in the life that she has agreed to lead.  This all sounds a bit dreadful for the female, doesn't it?   In reality, the final decision to marry is hers.  So she does not have to enter into any bond with a male that she doesn't like, but Asian culture here is a exercise in practical decision making and the pressure is on her to make the logical decision even if her heart doesn't agree with it.   This is the way.   This trend may be less observed in the richer higher society crowds where money and family support is less of an issue, but I see this being significant in the country where many families are living very close to the edge of poverty.  When the family is suffering, the lines between love and commitment to the family are heavily blurred.  I have seen this first hand I continue to see it.  It's almost a discomfort to observe.

I think the guys are in love with their brides more often than the girls are in love with their grooms.   When a practical decision is required, the female will try to will herself into love for the sake of her future and her family's future.  This is what I perceive from my time around the Thai people.    Of course, let me qualify this by saying I have little or no contact with the high society Thais.  I don't know exactly what freedoms their daughter's enjoy first hand.

Our topic today is about the moneys, so without delay, we'll move on.

Sin Sot; The First Payment

Sin Sot has been talked about on the web.  It's the money paid to the bride's family by a man who wants to take their daughter as a wife.  According to what has been written on the web, the money can be used for a number of purposes.  We farangs have said:

• The money is for the girl's parents.

• The money can be returned to the married couple.

• The money may be held in escrow by the family so if the couple divorce, the girl will have something to fall back on.

I spoke to several Thais.   They agreed with the first two points, but all Thais that I spoke with said that Sin Sot is never looked at as divorce money.   The third point above may not be what the Thais consider to be part of the Sin Sot plan.   A girl might fall back on that money if left high and dry by a vacating spouse but this is not its intended purpose.

There are a number of published opinions about Sin Sot and whether it should be paid, and how to pay it, and the expectations concerning it.   You can find some of that information on the web by searching for it.

Here is an article that says "don't pay it": www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader/reader1815.htm

Here is one that says pay 10% of your liquid assets:  www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader/reader2145.htm

Here is an article that is very compelling which states Sin Sot should not be paid because historically the practice is Chinese and that in the Thai culture not practicing it correctly.  http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader/reader2172.htm 

That view might be very compelling except for the fact that social customs change over time and must be allowed to change to meet the needs and desires of the people.   Should we say that Thai should remain not completely free just because this is the historical practice of the country?   No, I don't agree.  Culture should change as it benefits the people and if Sin Sot has also evolved into a different expectation then the culture has the right to request it.

Ok, so Sin Sot is the up front payment.   Big deal.   At least it's a very understood quantity.   I'm much more concerned about the possibility that in a year, a new wife might stake a claim to any wealth generated  during our time together.  I think the more important issue is the possibility of the divorce that is accompanied by the settlement money.

Gnern Yaah; The Last Payment

"Gnern Yaah" is way an English speaking Thai spelled the words.  Gnern is a very difficult word to say.  It's nearly impossible to write in English.  It's a sound that comes from the back of the mouth with tongue against the roof of the mouth and the tongue comes off the roof of the mouth for a moment.  There is no real "n" sound in it.  It takes practice to say correctly.  I would have spelled it Guugn because I don't really hear the "r" very subtle in this word.   Gnern is the word for money.   Tam Gnern is Thai for work (making money, or doing money and people normally people say to each other Tam Gnan - which means doing work).   Or, if you say Mai Me Gnern.  That mean "I don't have money".  Or Gnern Yut, which means "lots of money".

I had to make some corrections to this article on Feb 5th.

Yaah is the word for "stop".  That is loosely translated.   The word "Yaah Na", can be translated as "don't".  The words "Yaah Lehem" means "don't forget".

So Gnern Yaah can be translated into Stop Divorce Money.   This is basically divorce money.   The final settlement payment that ends the marriage.

Correction:  The word Yaah for "No" and "Divorce" or in fact two different words.   They are pronounced exactly the same.

Which brings me to the story and inspiration behind this article.....

Show Her The Money

Week before last, I was working in the office at my computer when I heard a commotion on the main production floor.  I heard a lot of Thai being spoken and I heard what sounded like one of girls all stressed out on the phone.   I stopped for a moment and I stuck my head around the corner to find out what the hell was going on.   As I walked onto the front floor I caught just a glimpse of one of my lead female workers as she slipped into the bathroom with her telephone.   She seemed distraught.

I snapped back around to my office and asked my top guy (who I rely on for management and translation), "What is going on?".   Seems he was already aware of the fact that this girls ex-husband had called her up and asked her to sign off on the final divorce papers (which evidently were not filed and processed 5 years prior).

I was told that he had threatened her life if she did not sign them and grant the divorce.

My female worker is about 28 and has been working with me for a couple of years now.   She is crafty and tough.  She is not a sucker and I suspect she said something he didn't like and that agitated him. 

And later on, I find out that she refused his request to sign off and give him the divorce without a considerable lump of cold hard cash.

Thai law requests that both parties agree to the divorce and it doesn't happen without the agreement.  So, in some cases, one party can hold out and refuse the divorce.

In this case, this girl and her husband parted ways 5 years earlier.   She claims he was abusive and bad towards her.  I believe it.   My laymen's guess is that she presented an image of an ideal Thai wife up front and once the marriage started she started to have her own way.   Thai men don't take kindly to that in some cases.   It's semi common to hear of a Thai man striking a woman who is out of line.   Typically that physical reprimand is not physically harmful but it would certainly not be understood in the west where physical confrontations like this are not tolerated.   I'm not condoning his actions, but I know this girl and I could see why she might be a odds with the normal expected Thai customs that would dictate that a wife will follow the lead of the husband.

Five years ago, he may have not had the money to pay her off, or he went too far with the his physical reprimands and turned the community against him, it could have gone several ways.  But, today he is in a spot because he has acquired some wealth and he has new girl who he would like to marry.

Another issue that weighs against him is that if he dies, he doesn't want his wealth to exit the family and go to the first wife.   So, this issue of making the divorce happen is forced upon him.

And my guess is that she was a smart ass with him on the telephone last week and basically he just told her that he'd have her killed to get out of the marriage.  That is my guess as I know nature her fairly well.

She called on her family for help.  She took 2 days off work to travel to a town (probably the town where the marriage was registered) to make the final negotiations with the X and file the paperwork, etc.   Her family traveled with her to negotiate the deal.

She came back a very happy lady.  I poked around to gain some insight to how well she did.  She was acting like a the cat who ate the mouse.  She had this continuous big smile when I asked her tell me just a little bit about how well she had done.

First, her Gnern Yaah was larger than Sin Sot.  I got that from her.  And when I asked if the settlement was larger than 1,100 dollars (40,000 baht) she said yes.   Then she said, "Gnern Yut"  (rising inflection on that second word) and she said that with enough energy and excitement to convince me that the number could have easily been over 100,000 baht.  Of course I don't know for sure, but I do know she is quite happy with the outcome.  (The office workers were saying that she had asked for 300,000 baht on the phone, so I don't know how it actually worked out)

The guy's other option would have been to file for abandonment and I am told the process to reset his status to single would have taken about 10 years through the normal courts.

I am also told that generally in the disillusion of a Thai marriage, the husband and wife will share equally in the division of assets acquired after marriage.   So, whatever monetary value comes to the marriage, 50% will be given to each partner upon the divorce.

Children will also effect the outcome.  Sometimes a lump payment is paid for the children's support.   Or monthly support is negotiated.

Special considerations are given to spouses who in the opinion of the community were wronged by the other spouse.  So, if the wife ran around on the husband, she may in fact get much less in the settlement or nothing at all.  Or if the husband physically abused the wife, he may have to give up more of his share to make the dissolution more fair.  I don't know how they come up with the formulas to work it out.  I would assume that family members argue the points with the other parties until they can reach an agreement.

So, how does that affect you as a farang.  Well, I would assume that the same divorce laws will apply to a Thai marriage.  If you marry, she is entitled to your entire estate if you should pass away unexpectedly.  Or if you would ask for a divorce, she will be entitled to 50% of the wealth that came to the marriage during the course of your time together.

You can just abandon her and go to your home country.  If you take your wealth with you then I suppose nothing will come to her, but if you stay in Thailand and want to remarry, then you'll pay for it and indications are that you'll pay handsomely for it.

Is the Gnern Yaah going to be larger than the Sin Sot?   No way to know up front.  Ouch!  That should get you thinking.

I don't see a lot of discussion on the web about the actual cost of divorce in Thailand.  I did see one article at Stickman http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/Reader2006/reader3091.htm  This guy comes off sounding like a lawyer and one has to ask, if he got so burnt in California with the first wife, why come here and do it all over again?   I don't get it?

Farang/Thai Gnean Yaah; One Local Case

I do know of one local Farang Thai couple who were together for about 14 years.  He had his company and assets in her name.   She had the control of his legal paperwork and all the assets in all ways.

He took pretty good care of her and her family.  She was educated, spent time in the US, and now speaks nearly perfect English.  She traveled from time to time (to the US) and had a generous monthly allowance.  He set up a small restaurant for her and she worked it.   To my knowledge he never mistreated her physically, but it was known widely that he had extra marital activity going on.  He had his mia nois from time to time.   She ignored it for a number of years, but at some point the marriage grew stale and she became excessively unhappy to the point where she became a bit physically abusive towards him.   Something had to give, and ending the marriage was the right choice.   I was not privy to the exact details of the divorce but it commonly known that he bought and paid for her brand new two story house and it was said to have cost 2 million baht.  She turned over his business to him legally.  (Incidentally, she now has a new "Beau" from Canada and who invested in her new larger and better restaurant so she made out pretty well and today she is quite a happy lady.)

So, in this case, the man paid out handsomely to make sure they parted ways amicably and the local community considers the x-wife's new house a proper parting gift.  (by the way, he did completely remodel her first house 10 years ago which to my knowledge she still has in another province)

I have a pretty good feeling that his payout was a bit painful.   I've seen this guy from time to time over the years and I have some indirect knowledge of his financial strength.   His payout was substantial in my judgment.  She probability got as much as he could afford to give without destroying his chances to recover.

One key issue to consider here.   Both are part of the same community and the community sometimes has their own sense of right and wrong.   Both parties needed to come out of this looking good so the local community would not look unfavorably towards either one of them.  In this case, he made the payout and she didn't bitch.  

What's up with the BangkokPost.com?

I watch the baht's trade value on almost a daily basis at the Bangkokpost.com.   And when I pull money from an ATM I look at the post's numbers to evaluate how much baht I can withdrawal.   For many many months, the amount withdrawn has been in close proximity to the value posted on the web.   I also give consideration to the fact that the bank is going to take a small percentage for themselves.  However, this week, those numbers seem to be way off.

I went to the bank on the 29th and found that my requested amount was too high and exceeded my withdrawal limit and that surprised me.  It had never happened before based on the BangkokPost's numbers.

So, I came back to the office and did some research and checked my US account to see what the actual rate of exchange was on that withdrawal.

I did 4 total withdrawals in the same way at 2 different banks, and upon confirmation of the actual amount removed from the accounts, I came up with this chart.  

Up to this point I had never seen the BangkokPost.com off by more than about .8 baht per dollar -- and I remember, I have been watching for quite a long time.

Then I remember some articles from the post about 4 weeks ago talking about major troubles for Thailand's export trade if the baht fell below 35 for any length of time.   These articles occurred just before the Bank of Thailand made the change in the financial markets that caused the fall of the Thai stock exchange.  Of course that made big news and they backed away from that change very quickly and they put the blame on foreigners for over-reacting (ha).

Is there some conspiracy to hide the incredibly strong value or the volatility of the baht locally?   Is the Post getting their information from a Thai source who is obscuring it's true value to keep the local farang investment community calm?   I don't know for sure, I'm just guessing.  But I know something is up because I typically watch these numbers.

Incidentally, I have been watching the baht's value today at www.xe.com.  It's seem like that during the day it's value is fluctuation wildly up an down by nearly a full baht.   Are we seeing at a potential problem with the financial market here in Thailand?  Is there a Thai entity trying to keep the lid on a pending crisis?  I wouldn't surprise me.

Numbers for the Week

It seems like an average week for readership.  Nothing very significant to report here.  Numbers are up just a little.

I also notice that my organic Google search phrases seem to be increasing in scope.  No doubt this is due to my increasing content on the site.

I'm quite happy with the readership as it is.

Thanks again to my readership for stopping by and your sharing of info and constructive comments.  I do appreciate them.

Dave Made a Funny Last Week....

DaveTheRaveBangkok has certainly impressed me with his fantastic ability to pick up on trends and make astute predictions about the future.

Dave has been friends with and a contributor to StickmanBangkok.com for quite some time.   You'll notice in various articles on the net that these two are referred to as friends and in each DaveTheRave column, Dave give thanks to Stickman for his support.

So, it completely baffles me how Dave could have possibly surmised that Stickman is coming back on-line with his weekly column.   I mean, please, could this prediction have been any more of a surprise to the entire Thailand readership base?   Would anyone have guessed such an unexpected move by the Stick?

Dave, I know I speak for all of us when I say that you just dazzle us with your keen perceptive powers and that from this point forward, no one, including myself, will ever again doubt your inane and uncanny ability to predict the future.  I know you're winning the respect of an entire generation of readers with writing like this.  Keep up the propaganda good work!

The Wrap Up

I sound pretty negative at the top of the article about the institution of marriage.  I have always been skeptical.  Things don't look very good for marriage in the US and they don't seem altogether that better here in Thailand.   I personally have invested quite a bit in my company here in term of capital and time.   Additionally, I have a large investment in myself in training and experience.  If I married today and my company leaped forward in value this year -- why would I like the idea that my spouse would automatically gain 50% of that value?

But, let's remember, Thailand is not a free country and we are hear at the pleasure of the Thais.   If we benefit them sufficiently, we can stay.   We don't like the offering, we can leave.   That is how it is laid out.  If you are a westerner who is low on available capital, Thailand doesn't really want you here.  They may tolerate it, but generally, the rules are that you must be financially able to handle yourself in a minimum manner.   That rule also applied to your marriage and your divorce.

Personally, I have never been through a divorce and that is because I have never been married.  Hind sight, this has turned out to be the prudent choice.   I consider marriage to be a very serious decision and I don't consider myself serious enough NOR do I see females serious enough to enter into it here in Thailand.  So, why complicate your life?   I recommend friendly liaisons, shacking up, cohabitation, etc -- however you want to call it.  I think this may be the most prudent choice and if you are generous enough, you will most certainly have takers on that offer.  This may not be a very good solution for children.  I don't have an answer for that situation.  If you want children, they would be better raised outside of Thailand, but if you're past the "nesting" stage of your life, Thailand might be a damn great place to be.

But, don't take my word for it.  I could be one of those guys on the net who advertises for Thai Marriage services and Fiancée Visa services and makes money from endorsing these services without fully explaining the possible down sides.    I could be one of those who sells subscriptions to fraudulent (or semi-fraudulent) on-line Thai female long distance dating services.   You just never know.  If you want to get the real story, you have to be here first hand seeing it for yourself.  There is just no other way.   Don't send your money to me or anyone else on the net without first checking them out thoroughly.  Just don't do it.

Thanks for stopping by.

John Galt