Visa and Work Permit Mills

With all the Visa changes and business legalities up in the air lately, I know there has been an outpouring of discussion on topics surrounding starting a business here in Thailand.   Some are doing this only to get around the Visa changes and others are genuinely interested in Thailand's business prospects.

I've been through the business setup and Visa and Work permit process (and continue to go through it) and I thought an article with some of my opinions on this subject might be of some value to others in the community.

First off, let me give you a blanket statement:

If you are planning to use business law only to perpetuate your indefinite stay here and have no sincere desire to enrich your local Thai community with the establishment of a business, you'll be always struggling against and up hill climb.   I don't recommend coming here to fool around (unless of course you fall into the retirement and then by all means enjoy yourself).   In my opinion, if you're here not doing what Thailand wants, the Thai authorities with soon enough sniff you out and put pressure against you to shut you down.   After all, lets remember Thailand is not a free country.   It is a protectionist country.   If you happen to operate a business that benefits the locals then you will have an opportunity to benefit yourself.   So, I believe that is the key to having a nice and pleasant stay here in the kingdom.

The Subjective and Objective

Starting a business and working inside Thailand requires some process in setting up the company and obtaining working credentials (Work Permit and Visa).

First of all, I want to thank a reader for sending this link www.on-samui.com/businessthailand.html  This is a basic list of the requirements for setting up a company.   There is also a list there of the disallowed jobs.  Requirements are subject to change frequently so don't take any posting on the web too seriously in it's entirety.   Good lawyers should be on top of changes and your Immigration and Labor offices will make sure the requirements are in order for your work permit and Visa.

I'm not an expert on this whole process but I will tell you what I believe I understand.

Parts of the process are very objective.  They are not subject to debate.  If you want to open up a company, you file the correct paper work, pay for the doc stamps, assign stock to the correct number of Thai trustees, file for tax number, etc. and the business is done.   A lawyer knows best how to accomplish this part of the process.  You can create 10 companies in a day if you like.   Thai law is pretty clear cut and there are little or no subjective decisions to deal with.  Government officials can't complain or question the process.  There are no direct grounds to deny a new business registration that I am aware of (provided you fit the basic rules which are pretty well defined).

However, if you present yourself to a local Labor office official and apply for the work permit, they can bulk at your request.  You can sit down in front of them and say, "I just finished my PhD in Applied Physics and I have this hot new idea to manufacture and export an inferred laser spectrophotometer and that is why I need the work permit".  And the middle-aged lady who if flipping through your documents, will pause for a moment, look up, raise an eyebrow and respond "Well, don't you think a Thai can do that?"

The truth is, they don't want to give out work permits.   They don't know you and they don't trust you.  In their minds they fear the possibility that they might giving an opportunity to a rogue farang who might set up a methamphetamine lab. 

This is part of the Asian culture and I have written briefly about this before in an article called Recommendation And Referrals.

The average Thai won't take you at face value.  This is more of a "prove it to me" kind of place (which is why fools on the Internet are sometimes fleeced of their money when seeing a Thai web site offer because they assume honesty is the standard).

That labor office worker doesn't have a natural instinct to trust you based on their keen perception of the world.  If she doesn't understand HOW you are going to make money, then to her (or him) it doesn't make sense.   And in their view if it doesn't make sense, it can't be feasible.  And if it's not feasible, then it doesn't garner approval.

Let me tell you what happened in my direct case.  I came up to a small city in the northeast and I had the company set up already and completely legal, I had a 90 day Non Immigrant B Visa, and I applied for my work permit.

The chief of the labor office would not sign off on the permit.   He spoke pretty good English, and he spoke with me directly, he said, "Keith what are you doing here?  You're a space man.  You belong in Bangkok".    This guy was a little bit loony as he also enjoyed recounting his hard luck story to me about not being granted a Visa to visit the US (like this was my fault or something).   This same scenario played out almost exactly the same way every 90 days.   They were NOT rejecting my application to work, they were just not approving me.

I would ask my lawyer, "Am I ok to work" and he would tell me yes and say that as long as I was actively doing everything to get legal, I'm am ok to work and that under normal conditions would the authorities would be fine.  And indeed throughout this process, I never had a problem.

The big break for me came when that chief of the labor office was transferred away to another post.   His subordinates by this time knew me very well.  And when the new chief came in, my work permit was signed and I have not any problems with renewal since.

Looking at my passport, I exhausted ten 90 day Non-Immigrant-B Visas (most of them from Vientiane Laos) before my work permit was approved.   With the new Visa laws, I do not know if the Thai consulate will give repetitive 90 Visa for current on-going work permit approvals.  I just don't have that information.  I would think that they would.  Generally, what I do know is that Thai authorities will help you if you are making all the correct efforts to do the right things.   Be a champion of good things and good things will generally happen for you.

Once you achieve the work permit, you then must immediately visit the local immigration office to apply for the one year Visa extension.  There is quite a bit of paper to supply them.   Again, if you ask them about this process how successful you will be, they we give you a subjective "it is a hard to get Visa".    Again, the Thai authorities will be reluctant to openly push you through the process without some salesmanship on your part.

You'll need to provide all the required forms, copies of all your business documents, proof of paying taxes (they will ask for 3 or more months worth of records -- not a great request for a brand spanking new business).   If in doubt, they will also ask for VAT registration (not required until your gross sales hit a certain figure, but register anyways).  They will also want to see proof you have 4 employees (as this is a fairly new requirement), and they want to see that you have paid their social security and incomes taxes on them for the past 3 months.    I supplied all this PLUS, I voluntarily added pictures of our working facility AND a group picture of my employees and myself.   At the time of this initial approval, all one year Visa extensions were being issued in only Bangkok.  I am told now that the decision process is distributed so that local offices should be able to make the approval -- so I do not know how that might make the process easier or harder.  At that time, approval took 4 to 6 weeks to come back from Bangkok.

The one year Visa approval is a lot of work.  But, once you are successful one time, I believe renewal is quite a bit easier.   I also sincerely believe that the locals endorsed my activities to Bangkok.  I strong suspect this was a key element in the Visa approval.

So, to wrap up this section, the business registrations, tax registrations will appear quite easy because there is little to question, but the work permit and one year Visa extension will take a lot of work and you may be faced with a number of delays.....

So what about having the lawyers do everything?   There seem to be firms out there who are a white skinned man's dream of one stop shopping.

The Work Permit and Visa Mills

Take a look at this ad on the Internet.  I copied this directly from one of the firms who offers a complete service.   This particular package is pretty complete.  They do list monthly services but don't really explain for how many months they would provide that service.

Anyhow, my point is that these guys make the visa and work permit look like a slam dunk deal.  These "subjective" areas are handled with money.  And what I mean to say here is that firms like these are most certainly making financial payments to the officials in the labor and immigration offices to streamline the approval process.   This is the mill.  It is common in area of where farang populations are large.

I was told by my lawyer (in Pattaya) that this is a common practice among lawyers.   They typically offer bribes as required to get no questions asked approvals from the various offices.  They typically have someone outside the country at a Thai embassy who will issue the first Non-B 90 day Visa, they have someone in the labor office for the Work Permit, and someone in the local Visa office that will extend the 90 day Visas into one year Visas.

And let me clarify something.  If you pay a firm to fast-track your work permit and Visa, you'll most likely receive real  documents signed by the correct officials.   They are not illegal documents.   They may have been obtained in an illegitimate way but the documents themselves are typically genuine.  So, I don't think you would need to worry too much about being carted off to jail for receiving these document in an non-standard way.   You should make some efforts to be sure you are with a good lawyer who does not completely force documents as I believe there are some enterprising individuals out there who do.

5 years ago, when I started this process, I didn't know any better and I paid my lawyer about 2 thousand dollars to do everything that is listed above.  I was in Pattaya at the time.   It just so happened that around that time that Thailand put a moratorium on issuing work permits and so my lawyer was not able to complete the process.  He set up the corporation but the work permitting and one year Visa process was temporally on hold.

At was at this point that I decided to make a move out of that area and go up country.  Looking back, I think it was the best move.  I moved up country and had my business transferred up there and my lawyer started the process to obtain my work permit.   However, this was a weakness for my lawyer because he didn't have any insider on the payroll, so I was now at the mercy of the normal system.   He was completely ineffective outside his home turf.  I carried my own paper work and hired a translator up here to assist me.

And as you read earlier in this article, my process took several years and I operated the company and worked during that entire time without any problems from the local authorities.

The Pro and the Cons

Knowing that I know today, I would have had my lawyer set up my company as he did before.  That is a no-brainer.   I don't recommend you trying to set it up yourself.   The lawyer with assign themselves as 51% owners in your limited partnership (one of the limited partners) and they will also add the required number of Thais in your corporation.  You need a lawyer on board to protect you should someone want to challenge the validity of your corporation.   A strong lawyer can do that.   They know how to do that.   So, pay them the 5 or 6 hundred dollars they want to do that part of the work.

However, I recommend that you apply for your own work permit and one year Visa.   And I'll tell you why.

Let's say tomorrow, a local news reports on a story of a huge drug dealer that has been operating on the streets of Bangkok with a legal work permit.   And lets say that labor office and immigration office are really embarrassed from such a story.  The Thai authorities would react by scrutinizing all farangs with work permits. (very much like they are weeding out back English teachers right now).

If you had previously gone through a Visa/work permit mill, then you would be in potential trouble and you would be investigated with some vigor.   It's even possible that they might cancel your work permit if they found you in violation of a real requirement.   You might also find yourself a slave to your lawyers to keep you supplied with continuous renewals of your documents.

But, look at the other option.  Getting the work permit and one year Visa extension yourself, you have an relationship directly with the labor and immigration offices.  They know you.  They know your workers.   If they like you and they will vouch for you.  This is an invaluable commodity.   IF and when crack down comes around, you will most likely not be in the line of fire because you are more like family to the community than you are an "unknown foreigner".   When a crack down comes around, if these offices don't know you -- they will not speak for you at all.  They will be afraid to associate themselves with you because they don't want to loose face if you are caught up into doing illegal activities (which of course most of you are involved with these types of activities).

And the one very nice thing about doing things yourself (which is the most correct way to do things) is that you save a ton of money.   I already told you about business set up fees.  Work permit and Visa extension fees through a "mill" or a lawyer (same thing), is typically 600 or 700 hundred dollars.

Want to know how much I pay?    The work permit cost me 100 baht for the girl to translate my one page application into Thai for me, and the fee for one year work permit (4 x 90 day periods - 750 baht for each period) is 3,000 baht in total.   That's it!   Nothing more.   That roughly translates to $85 USD.

My one year Visa extension costs 1,900 baht.  This roughly $50 USD.  That it.  I have to check in every 90 days and fill out another piece of paper but there are no other fees for that whole year.

So, these lawyers are doing very well for themselves.   And if you buying through them, you may NOT doing very well for yourself in the long run.

I highly suggest you consider making a relation with the labor and immigration offices.  The labor office is supposed to come out to your place of business and make an inspection to make sure you are compliant.   You may consider taking them out to lunch.  Good contact and personal efforts on your part all weigh in to your favor.  And don't forget, Thais, like other Asian cultures are very social creatures.  If you don't make a effort to see them and make them "part of the family" so to speak, then they really think you're up to no good.

Major Disclaimer Here

Keep in mind that what I have written concerning the set up of my company was done 5 years ago.  With the former prime minister's fiasco in selling controlling ownership of a communications company to a foreign power, the Thai authorities may in fact have changed the rules for setting up and controlling ownership of the company.  There has been plenty of talk about this topic in the news recently.   Rules do in fact change here frequently because the Thai are always trying to thwart foreigners from controlling too much of the country but at the same time they (the Thais) are trying to reach into the foreigners pocket for the money.   So, its a terrible cat and mouse game of who can get one "over on the other" kind of thing.  Your lawyer should be on top of these legal changes.  I recommend getting opinions from several lawyers.

The Next Generation Update

I wrote an article about a girl a few months back.   You can take a quick peek at it here Walking Street - The Next Generation.  This first article was written almost 5 months ago.  The piece was about a girl who lives here and who I thought would be a future candidate for the naughty night life at walking street.   Well, I just took pictures of Noi on Wednesday this week.   She and her mother had their cart over at the night market here in town.  I go to the night market frequently.  It's a great socializing event.

I have to laugh sometimes... Noi's mother is still talking to her daughter about marring me.   Her mother says things like "I love you" and points to her daughter.   Comments like these make the whole group laugh.  I sometimes walk up being Noi and grab  the hood on her sweatshirt and give it a little yank -- or I might poke her shoulder from behind.  Noi will typically jump in surprise and let out small friendly expletive in Thai and then she'll scold a bit me for being so forward.  I just laugh and she takes it well.  (I've known her for about year so she allows me to touch her without really getting genuinely steamed. Normally Thai girls are very offended when you touch them, but if you have some contact with them, you can get around this natural barrier and they will actually enjoy the fuss you make over them.)

Noi likes to act indifferent to me, but she carefully watches me as I walk by.  And she'll simile at me in a very subtle ways.  If you look in this second picture -- this is her, "I know you want to get into my pants" smart-ass kind of smile.   She enjoys the attention.   Friendly bantering between you and the local Thai girls is one way to get them into your "development pipeline" (this is a term that was written to me in email from a reader this week).   I don't really think that much about Noi except that I enjoy fun'n around with her.   Sometimes just a little flirting is enough to enjoy the day.

They sell several products.  The first is a mix of strips of sour mango, peanuts, chopped onions, hot spices, sweet syrup, and fish sauce (very salty).   They fine tune this mix of hot, sour, salt, and sweeteners until the product is just right.   I personally would not each this mix as it is very unhealthily being full of salt and sugars but the locals seem to like it.   It's cost about 35 baht in the quantities that you see in this bowl.    The also sell the pre-cut sour mango that you see in the second picture.  This comes with a bag of mixed salt and spice.  It costs 20 baht.

Stickman Private Investigation Update

According to a recent interview done by www.twofatfarangs.com Stickman claims that he given up the private investigation work long ago when his identity was made public.  But there are several web pages in the internet that are contrary to this statement....

Here are a few links to advertisements that continue to supply Stickman with fresh Private investigation revenues:

http://www.thailandpi.com/links.htm

http://www.untiedshoes.co.uk/sites/trustyourthai/links/

http://www.thailandguru.com/culture-mating.html

Some of these may be old posting as one of them has a link back to Stickman's old private investigation  http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/service.html page which has been inactive for some time.  However, Stickman himself has not pulled these empty links out of his reader's submissions areas so one might be left to think that this web page will re-emerge in it's old location at just any time.

Does anyone out in the work still know if Stickman is still doing the Private Investigation work?    What about WhosYourDaddy?  Anyone hear of him doing any investigation work (as this has been rumor in the past)?   Send me an email if you have some fresh information on this......

Numbers for the Week

Numbers are up this week.   I'm also seeing a definite trend in interest in articles that involve Stickman.   The article below "Stickman Speak and the Cry Baby" has been out only 10 days and it is receiving a lot of interest.   I'm a little surprised, I suppose farang Thailand readership gets a little kick when I tie Stickman down to the virtual whipping post.  Perhaps they are just wondering if Stickman is going to stand up and defend himself front and center and stop running around behind people's back posting on other web sites.   I will be the first to tell you that The Great Galt has baggage.   I have made my mistakes but I'm also willing to make efforts to make things right in an up front and honest way.  And I don't going around looking for sneaky ways to defraud people of money with questionable web postings (which I claim Stickman has done in the past).

The Wrap Up

The Work Permit and Visa Mills may be a great way to get started.   I would believe they can certainly get your new company all set up and running within the 90 days.   That removes a lot of worry from you in regards to the new highly restrictive 90 days that you have as a tourist to get all this done.   However, you may also find that the Thai consulate in neighboring countries will allow you a number of repetitive 90 Non-B Visas to allow you the time you need to get the normal paperwork done on your own.    I suggest that you have a lawyer set up the company first, and then work on the work permit and one year Visa yourself.  Their is a lot of paper to collect, but if you have a good Thai interpreter working for you, and you are in a community that genuinely wants and needs the foreign business, then you should have a very good chance to save quite a bit of money AND make friends with those offices in the process.   The Mills may not be the most ethical way to go, and it is remotely possible that you could be held accountable for signing that paperwork, so you should exercise some judgment on who you hire.  Go with a lawyer that is recommend to you by a friend who has used their services for quite some time.  Ask around.   Get several opinions.   Don't choose the first person you find.   There are a number of great lawyers in Bangkok and Pattaya, who can get you started.   Not every lawyer is a good match to every clients.    Meet and talk to several.   Compare prices.   Don't hire anyone off the net who you don't personally know.  That could be  recipe for disaster.  You need to know that the law is weak here in Thailand and the means lawyers push the limits on the rules here further than the lawyer in the west -- so what does that generally tell you?

Next week I think I'll write an short article on "Reverse" Sin Sot.  That's right -- Sin Sot is that concept of paying the girl's family on the way into a marriage, but what about paying on the way out?   Perhaps I should refer to it as the marriage "Exit Fee".  Why has no one given you a view of the flip side of the coin?   Probably because this type story is bad for the ThaiVisa business.  And we all know who gains money from the ThaiFiancee and ThaiVisa businesses.  I'm not saying don't marry a Thai female, what I am saying is that you need to hear the other story don't you think?   Why not?

Campers -- it's quite alright to follow an Internet recommendation to have a burger (ok, and maybe a babe "for take out") at a place like TheBigMango at Nana plaza, because a burger is pretty easy to understand.   It's either a quality product or it is not, but getting Visas, Work permits, TEFL courses, English teaching jobs, marriage to a Thai, or buying property are all sticky matters and you better not believe much of what you see on the Internet that looks rosy or you're going to get burned.   If you don't believe me, come over here and ask around from those who have been burned.

Good luck in your efforts and thanks for stopping by.....

John Galt